In the Tolkien newsgroups, long debates have raged over whether Gandalf the White would have defeated the Witch-king in single combat, or whether the reincarnated Glorfindel could have defended Frodo and Sam against Shelob. These debates finally got the best of some readers and we decided to settle the issue once and for all. Kindasorta.
I did read recently that Sir Ian McKellen pits his Magneto and Gandalf action figures mano a mano, so I suppose it isn't all that farfetched.
Posted by Joshua Galun <zool@cyberwar.com>:
Anyone have any cool ideas for LoTR or Silmarillion battles? Like fantasy battles... my personal pick is the Nazgul vs. the Balrog... who do you think would win?
Posted by Cerebus the Aardvark <kreme@netcom.com>:
One word: Nazgulbriquettes Ok, so it's two words.... :)
Posted by Peter Payne <leto2@gol1.gol.com>, Louis Epstein <lepslog@j51.com>, Mark Lowes <Mark@flyhmstr.demon.co.uk>, and Graeme Darragh <GraemeR@warp.msoe.edu>:
What about Sauron vs. the Emperor from Star Wars? Sauron.Sauron vs. God? God.
Sauron vs. the Enterprise? Sauron. Unless Scotty can divert the warp coils into the phasers ("They canna take the strain, Captain!"). With Kirk or Picard as Captain? Lets face if, folks, if it's Kirk, Sauron doesn't have a chance. Kirk's diplomacy is a phaser and a smirk! Picard might win simply by talking Sauron out of existance. 8^D
Sauron vs. the Federal Government? Sauron. What! Sauron may have had his hand stretched out over Middle-earth and he might have had the Nazgul, but come on! The government has the IRS. You thought wraiths were bad.
Khan in the Reliant vs. all seven Nazgul at once? All "seven"? [ed. - Surely he means "twenty-seven" here.] They need a couple of backups, in case Scotty pulls it off, to help out the "Big S".
Sauron vs. the Death Star? Sauron. Is the Death Star complete or not?
Sauron vs. people who post inane who'd-beat-whom queries on Usenet: Sauron. WHOA! Better watch my back. I mean if I'm about to, ARGGGGH.........
Posted by Cerebus the Aardvark <kreme@netcom.com>:
Not a chance. Nothing hurts these people who post inane "who'd-beat-whom" queries on USENET. :-)
Posted by David Feder <feder@binah.cc.brandeis.edu>:
Gollum vs. Wormtongue? Slinker vs. Stinker, for you psychologists out there? Radagast the Brown vs. Tom Bombadil's hat? Bofur vs. Barliman Butterbur?
At this point, things started getting a little... odd, as I and some other posters turned the conversation to interesting battles:
and also some very unbalanced (and short) ones:
followed by some domestic squabbles:
Posted by <pbkarch@ibm.net>:
Team A
Team B
On the average Team B looks a little stronger, but Ungoliant evens things out. We need to come up with a computer simulation so we can see what would happen.
Posted by Gregory Byshenk <gbyshenk@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>:
"In football today, it was Minas Tirith over Dale, 4-2; Rivendell trouncing Edoras 7-1; Lonely Mountain over Iron Hills 1-0; Lorien over the Grey Havens, 3-1, with the Havens not playing up to form since losing two forwards to the West; and, in a surprise upset, Hobbiton over Minas Morgul, 4-3, with Morgul falling apart after their captain was sent off."
Posted by <sean@posgate.apana.org.au>:
How could team A hope to beat the likes of Smaug and Fingolfin???? Smaug was felled by just one arrow, but seriously, a Dragon?? And then there's Fingolfin, who would probably slaughter the entirety of team A on his own. Hmmm, tough one there. I'd still back team B although we (I) still don't know the full extent of Sauron's capabilities.
Posted by John Elliott <elliott.teaching@physics.oxford.ac.uk>:
The winner to play Team C:
Posted by William Hsu <bhsu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu>:
Heavily weighted in favor of B. Smaug goes into a holding action against Ungoliant; Varda blows everybody but her away on Team A; and the rest jump the big spider. She sits on everybody (unless Radagast can call an Eagle or two to his aid) except Elbereth, who blinds her with light and burns her to a crispy cinder. There's a remote chance that Ungoliant could have a few tricks up her sleeves - consider the fact that she's huge having swallowed the sap of the Two Trees (as much of the good stuff as is in the Silmarils) and Varda's vats of starlight that she'd tapped from the trees and saved for milennia (an unknown quantity, in both senses of the word). Even Morgoth was afraid of her at the end, and she survived an attack from most if not all of the Balrogs in Angband. I still suspect that she's vulnerable to Elbereth's power; if Galadriel can outdo Shelob vicariously (with just a Phial of liquid that scarcely matches whatever Elbereth could whip up), then surely the Star-Kindler can match Shelob's Mama. Not a chance for Team C. This'll do it:
Team D:
Now, how about Team E:
...vs. Team F?
For bonus points, can you tell me what all the Team F members have in common? (Hint: you could fit Saruman in as well.)(Highlight answer to read)
Posted by Louis Epstein <lepslog@j51.com> and William Hsu <bhsu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu>:
Which Mablung are you talking about? If we're talking about steadily weaker teams,try:
The one in Doriath, not the Ithilien Ranger. OK, I'll bite:
Posted by Charles J. Jones <Charles_Jones@HP-Loveland-om10@om.hp.com>:
Well now, surely we're going to work Tom Bombadil in there somewhere, even despite his unfortunate preference for only playing at his home field.Finally, the thread turned to the Middle-earth ToughMan / ToughElf match-ups:
Posted by Beleg Cuthalion <SABCF@ns.rhodes.edu>:
This idea came to mind when reading this thread: Give your top five tough guys. One for Elves and one for Men. This might lead to some interesting arguments. Mine are: Elves
Men
You might even try some tag-teams!
Posted by Brian Knarr <bgk1@cornell.edu>:
This is a tough call. Beren got the Silmaril, but Hurin is called "The greatest warrior of mortal men" (or something like that), so whom do you put first?
Posted by Nick Vesselovskyiy <nvesselo@chat.carleton.ca>:
Elves:
Humans:
... and no, no Beren! Never! All he did is almost spoil the show when he broke his knife in Morgoth's hall... otherwise he did nothing at all. Definitely not a hero for me.
Posted by Bill Thompson <williamt@lamar.colostate.edu>:
I would replace Maedhros and Earendil with Glorfindel and Ecthelion. Anytime you beat a Balrog mano a mano is a feat worthy of note, IMHO. Anyway, I would keep Feanor #1, put Finrod #2, Fingolfin #3, Ecthelion #4 (because he killed the Lord of the Balrogs), and Glorfindel #5. I am using the term "beat" in a tactical sense. Even though both Glorfindel and Ecthelion died in their battles, I would call taking out a balrog (Maia) by an elf a tactical victory. [Hurin]: YYYYEEESSSS! By a longer shot than can be measured. [Ar-Pharazon]: I totally agree. [Witch-king]: I have to disagree with you here. How many of the Witch-king's abilities were his own and how much did he derive from Sauron via his ring? I would rather rate people on their innate abilities. [Beren]: I really disagree with you here. For four years after his father's death, Beren (alone, BTW) did so much hurt to Morgoth's forces in Dorthonian that Morgoth set a price on his head no less than the one on Fingon (king of the Noldor at the time). Then, what about Beren's journey through the Mountains of Shadow? Therefore, I would put Beren at #3 and shift Elendil and Ar-Pharazon down one each.
Posted by Antti Rasinen <rasinen@kontu.bbs.fi>:
Elves
Men
[Re: Beren not a hero]: And Turin is? What did he do? Was partly the reason why Nargothrond was destroyed. Killed a dragon. So? Earendil and Bard killed also one.
Posted by Jon Badger Watson <JWATSON@acnet.wheaton.edu>:
What about Tuor? Stands head and shoulders above any elf in Gondolin. Married the King of Gondolin's daughter. Listened to his wife and prepared for the (unsuccessful) defense of said city (unsuccessful because a certain king thought he was safe and sound and wasn't so interested in listening to good advice :( ). Played the harp, sang. Threw the traitor bum (Maglor?) off the wall in the middle of pitched battle. Basically, total stud.
Posted by Andrew Solovay <asolovay@kmassucc3-sun.us.oracle.com>:
[Re: Beren not a hero]: You're forgetting that before Beren met Luthien, he'd made himself the scourge of Morgoth's armies. Orcs would flee in terror at the rumor that Beren was coming. Morgoth put a price on Beren's head equal to the price on Fingolfin's, High King of the Noldor. Sounds pretty studly to me. It's just that the story of Beren and Luthien isn't about combat, so Beren doesn't do much of it.
Posted by John Elliott <sjoh0132@sable.ox.ac.uk>:
I was discussing this thread with my brother just now, and he asked: What about the location of the battle? Should there be two legs - home and away? Obviously this is going to be important: Watcher in the Water vs. Saruman at: Moria - Saruman becomes fishfood. Orthanc - Watcher becomes sushi.(I guess the real estate people are right about that.)